Daily Kitten Chat Forum » Cats & Kittens

The Carnivore Connection

(38 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by furryfriends50
  • Latest reply from Tobert

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  1. Cat [kat] –noun
    1. a small domesticated carnivore, Felis domestica or F. catus, bred in a number of varieties.
    2. any of several carnivores of the family Felidae, as the lion, tiger, leopard or jaguar, etc.

    car⋅ni⋅vore
    [kahr-nuh-vawr,-vohr]
    –noun
    1. an animal that eats flesh.
    2. a flesh-eating mammal of the order Carnivora, comprising the dogs, cats, bears, seals, and weasels.
    3. an insectivorous plant.

    Cats are defined as a small domesticated carnivore. Carnivores eat flesh and are a member of the order Carnivora. Since the beginning of time cats have eaten small prey that they caught. They originated in the desert and got most of their water from their food which typically would have been mice, voles, rabbits, small birds, crickets, and rats. Egyptians used cats as a means to exterminate the rats and mice that got into their grains. Cats throughout the years were kept at farms to help with the mice and rat overpopulation. Farmers found cats valuable because they were the only animal that wouldn’t eat the grain, instead choosing to catch their own prey.

    Fast-forward a few thousand years and we are feeding our cats dry and wet food. The cats today are descendants of the cats that were so valued for their hunting skills. So why are we feeding them such unnatural foods now?
    Dry food consists of unnatural ingredients. Even the meat in it is unnatural because it is reduced to an 8% moisture content. Most veterinarians recommend feeding dry food so naturally we as consumers listen to them, after all they should know right? Wrong. They get a kickback from the products they sell. Many people argue that veterinarians sell products like Science Diet dry food because they need our business. Dry food causes numerous illness’ therefore we have to take our cats to the vet again and again and get another prescribed food.

    Lets say you have just gotten a kitten named Felix. You, being a responsible pet owner, took Felix to the vet within a week of getting him. The vet told you to feed Science Diet Indoor Kitten Chow and that dry food is best. So, thinking that the vet must be right you buy a small bag and go home. A year later Felix is now ready for adult cat food so you get Science Diet Indoor Adult dry food from a store like Petsmart. Felix is eating a lot of food so you fill up his bowl all the time. Before you know it, Felix is obese. You ask your vet what to do and you are told to feed SD Indoor Adult Light cat food and believing that this is the right thing to do you go and buy some. Unknown to you the consumer all light cat foods are filled with even more carbs causing cats to get even fatter. However thinking that of course your vet is right you keep feeding the recommended amounts until….Felix starts getting hairballs. Back you go to the pet store to purchase SD Indoor Adult Light Hairball dry food. Are you starting to think this is ridiculous? It is, however hundreds of cat owners are doing this everyday. We believe that a vet of all people should know about how to feed cats. However, the vast majority of them don’t.

    Raise your hand if you think dry food is best for your cat. If you raised your hand you are wrong. The pet food industry is more out their for money than the health of your cat. One common myth is that dry food will clean a cats teeth. Many of us have cleaned up after a cat loses its dinner. You probably noticed that almost all the pieces of dry food are still whole. Why is that? Cats swallow kibble whole, what they do chew is broken only at the top of their tooth; it has about the same benefits for teeth as people eating stale Cheeto’s. Sounds great right?

    Another thing people say is that their cat loves dry food. Well, the pet food industry strikes again. They cheat by coating the kibble with animal digest or animal fat to make it taste and smell good to cats. However on the inside of the kibble typically is grains. Remember near the top of this how cats ate the mice in the grain sheds? It was a great system because the cats did not eat the grains. So here comes the ultimate question: Why do they put grains into your carnivores food? Answer: because its cheap and they can get away with it. Cats can survive off of it because they put a tiny bit of meat in and add extra vitamins, minerals, and taurine to it. But, is Felix going to thrive on dry food? The simple answer is no, he is not. Down the road Felix is going to probably either get diabetes or CRF. That could have been avoided or delayed if you had fed Felix properly. Instead of living a long time he ended up dying from CRF when he was 12.

    You decide to try learn about feline nutrition before getting another cat. What you will discover is nearly the opposite of what your vet is telling you. Cats should be feed only wet food and SD is well, crap. Knowing this you go buy a bag of a food such as Innova EVO for those days that you are going to not be there and need to leave out food. You also get a few large cases of Wellness CORE and EVO wet foods so you can start out right. Your new cat, Fluffy, is fed only grain free, low carb foods. Instead of Fluffy becoming obese she stays nice and slim. There are much less hairballs because with high quality foods and especially wet food there is little shedding. Another big plus is the litter box. Fluffy’s stools are small especially compared to Felix’s. You learn that the reason behind that is cats can only digest meat, after all they are carnivores. The corn, soy, and other plant products in the Science Diet that you fed Felix all just went out the other end. Since Fluffy is fed primarily meat there is much less waste.

    However you still have one of the small problems that you had with Felix. Fluffy’s teeth are yellow with plaque. Dry food doesn’t clean a cats teeth but wet food is really no better. Therefore there is a large tarter buildup on Fluffy’s teeth so you have to take her into the vet for a dental cleaning. A couple hundred dollars later Fluffy has clean teeth again but the damage is still going to be there. Since her teeth were not properly taking care of they will fall out/rot farther down the road.

    Unlike Felix, Fluffy doesn’t get CRF until she is 20. She stays healthy for the majority of her life except for all the dental cleanings and a few upper respitory infections. Then there was the time she ate that string and had to go into emergency surgery however that doesn’t relate to nutrition.
    After Fluffy’s passing you research more before getting a new kitten. You decide to adopt from an animal shelter and get an older cat that probably would be put to sleep other wise. You learn about feeding raw and the dental and other health benefits. After you adopt your new cat a 7 year old black cat that you name Blackie you go out and ask butchers for the leftover meats especially organs like kidneys and livers. You go to the grocery store and get organic meat. Blackie is easy to switch and soon starts to show health differences after you have quit feeding any commerical pet food. You choose to follow the Frankenprey style of raw which means you feed 80% meat, 10% small bones, 5% liver, and 5% kidney.

    Your typical grocery list for your cat is as much variety of meat you can get; the typical week you feed chicken, beef, turkey, lamb, rabbit, and pork (after freezing pork for 3 weeks prior to feeding). You choose to feed chicken breasts because it has small ribs. However knowing that lighter meats like chicken breast have little taurine you also feed lots of hearts.
    You are lucky and are able to get meats like rabbit and lamb, venison and buffalo. Blackie’s favorite food is lamb heart so you feed about one whole heart a week. You are able to get organic livers and kidneys as well as free range organic chicken. Blackie is really healthy and has clean, white teeth. When you took Blackie to the vet for a checkup the vet commented on Blackie’s clean teeth and overall better health than any other animal that he has gotten into his clinic. You just say that it is because of his diet. You know that many vets are against raw feeding because they don’t know any better and you want Blackie to get fair treatment.

    All to soon Blackie is in his 20’s. You still feed raw, and he is the most energetic senior cat that your vet has ever seen. His blood tests came up perfect when he was 22 and your vet said that he had never seen such good blood work on a senior cat. The vet goes so far as saying that it should be framed as an example of how blood work should be. Then you say that you feed him raw…and you get yelled at. The vet said your killing your cat, Blackie is going to die. Just a few minutes ago he was praising the blood work and now that he knows what Blackie is eating he says your killing your cat. Why? He doesn’t know the truth; the truth about pet food.

    You decide to switch vets because a new holistic vet has just opened on the other end of town. They promote feeding raw. They also discourage giving all the vaccines that your other vet said to do.

    Blackie passed over when he was 30 from old age.

    It is now 2025. All vets promote wet and raw food. Eukanaba, Science Diet, and Iams are only selling prescription wet food diets. Dry food has been banned. Petsmart and Petco only sell brands without by-products, corn, soy, wheat, and all other questionable ingredients. They also sell raw for the people that make it themselves as well as premade raw. Wet food isn’t allowed to have carrageenan in it. Nearly all the animal shelters are no kill, instead of giving out Science Diet when you adopt a cat they give out a months worth of premade raw.

    The plague of obesity, diabetes, and kidney failure has slowed down drastically. Very few cats need to have dental cleanings. No longer are vets promoting yearly vaccinations if your cat is only indoors.
    Wouldn’t that be awesome? Cats allowed to be the carnivores that they are. Of course we being the consumers need to help it happen. The horse industry demanded this several years ago and they got better products. Now it is the pet food industries turn. We can make this happen!
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    Benefits of raw feeding:
    1) Softer coat
    2) Much more energy
    3) Clean teeth
    4) No more “cat breath”
    5) More muscles and less fat
    6) You use much less. The average 10 pound cat needs only 2-4 ounces of raw per day
    7) Raw fed cats tend to live longer with fewer health problems
    8) Raw can turn around the effects of diabetes and obesity. Many cats that have diabetes and were switched to raw no longer need medication.
    9) It is the only natural food
    10) You get control over the ingredients.
    11) Your cat gets to eat food that is natural for him/her.
    12) Much less of the food is wasted which really helps with the cost of cat litter and when you are cleaning the litter box there is little smell.
    ________________________________________________________________________
    Helpful Websites:
    www.fnes.org
    http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library
    http://catinfo.org/
    http://www.rawfedcats.org/
    http://rawfed.com/myths/cats.html
    http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
    http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php
    http://yourdiabeticcat.com/
    __________________________________________________________________________
    Recommended reading list:
    Your Cat: Simple New Secrets to a Longer, Stronger Life.
    By Elizabeth M. Hodgkins, DVM, Esq.

    Raising Cats Naturally: How to Care for Your Cat the Way Nature Intended
    By Michelle T. Bernard

    Not Fit for a Dog! The Truth About Manufactured Dog and Cat Food
    By Michael W. Fox, B. Vet Med., Ph.D., D.Sc., M.R.C.V.S., Elizabeth Hodgkins, D.V.M., and Marion E. Smart, D.V.M., Ph.D.

    Natural Nutrition for Cats, The Path to Purr-fect Health
    By Kymythy R. Schultze, C.N., C.N.C.

    *I wrote this so sorry if it isn't proper English. Not all us country hicks can talk properly :)

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  2. FF50 - this is fabulous ! I think it is very well written. Thank you for taking the time that it obviously took for you to write this.

    Posted 2 years ago by 2 Popoki #

  3. Awesome. I'm going to check this out more.

    Posted 2 years ago by MeezerMama in OK; 10/23 #

  4. Meezer Mama !! Long time no see ... how are you doing?

    Posted 2 years ago by 2 Popoki #

  5. where do you find meat like rabbit and buffalo? i would guess not you regular grocery store, but would a farmer's market tend to offer selections like that?

    Posted 2 years ago by kaits_mama #

  6. I'm raw curious but frankly it's so different that it's scarey for me. What if I do it wrong and hurt them? I don't know about this. Thank you FF..I see you're a die hard convert and just wondered...how long have you been feeding your cats raw? How old are they? =)

    Posted 2 years ago by Karenopa #

  7. I am actually still listening to this right now: http://www.talkzone.com/mp3FLASHplayer.asp?SegmentID=52136 and think it is very interesting and talks about feeding raw. i posted a thread with the link as well as a link to the pictures they talk about in its own thread.

    The only place I am able to get the meats like rabbit and buffalo are from a local food co-op. Its also the only place I am able to find organic livers and kidneys.

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  8. I've started feeding my cats raw chicken breast, finely chopped, in the last few days. The 2 month old kitten, Kensho, eats it more readily than Jasmine, who is 15 months. I noticed a little bit that seemed to have been vomited up the other day. I tried putting some of their Friskies canned food into the same bowl to see if that might help them eat it and I think it did. Still, the results so far are mixed. I think I'm either going to try frying it a little in butter, and chopping it finer. Then I can cook it less and less gradually. Also, I've heard sprinkling parmesan cheese on raw chicken makes it more savory for kitties.

    Posted 2 years ago by Mojo #

  9. Just to say, it isn't safe to mix raw food with commercial food or too feed commercial 8-12 hours before they get raw. Commercial digests much slower than raw so commercial in front of the raw can cause cats to get salmonella. The raw meat is blocked then in the cats stomach and it takes 24-36 hours for salmonella to develope. Raw is digested in 12 hours which is why cats can't get salmonella, but if it is blocked in their there is a risk.

    If you cook it you will have to use lots of supplements because so many of the nutrients are destroyed when cooked. Also make sure there are no bones that are cooked because those can harm a cat. However cats need raw bones to make feeding raw balanced.

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  10. Hmm, that's interesting about not mixing raw with commercial. But I believe I heard of this approach from one of those raw food sites you provided links to. I think it was catinfo.org

    But actually, in reviewing it here, I see I misunderstood:

    http://www.catinfo.org/#Transitioning_Dry_Food_Addicts_to_Canned_Food_

    It's for dried food addicts. Odd, I've never known of a cat to prefer dry to canned food. All the cats I've known LOVE canned food. Okay, so I need to establish mealtimes, and stop leaving out dry food. I need to start them on raw only, but first I need to get Taurine.

    Posted 2 years ago by Mojo #

  11. If you feed lots of hearts you don't need to supplement with taurine. However hearts are more expenive than normal meat.

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  12. I have been feeding raw since April (i think) but finally switched to all raw the end of august. the farm cats range in age from 5 years to 1.5 years if I am remembering whom was born when correctly.

    One of our housecats, Mikey, is 6 and he is working on switching to raw.

    Milo, another housecat, is 13 and eats some raw but since I can't get phophorus binders he isn't able to get much.

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  13. You can buy Nature's Variety at the pet store. It's made specifically for kitties so it won't hurt them.

    There are also lots of places online to buy raw pet food, like www.hare-today.com. They ship it to you frozen!

    I've fed both. I've purchased from the butcher, but that's EXPENSIVE.

    Posted 2 years ago by leighangela #

  14. It's ok to mix raw with grain-free canned food, but it isn't ok to mix raw with dry food!

    Posted 2 years ago by leighangela #

  15. I can sometimes get free meat from the butcher. Some people ask their butcher to save the things like lungs, kidneys, liver, and heart for them and they get it for free.

    I disagree with mixing any commerical cat food with raw. Commercial just digests so much slower than raw. Therefore that gets stuck behind commercial in a cats digestive system and will become a much greater risk of developing salmonella.

    Salmonella: 24 hours to develope
    Raw: 6-12 hours to digest
    commerical wet OR dry: 12-24 hours to digest

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  16. FF, how many meal times do you feed daily? And how long do you leave the food out?

    Posted 2 years ago by Mojo #

  17. I feed one meal a day because that is how much times I can get there. If I were to feed two meals a day I'd have to be getting up at 5:30 to make it to school in time. They do just fine on that scheduale and while they are hungry by the next day they all keep up their wieght really well.

    Food gets left out for about 15 minutes (or less) they eat everything I give them in that amount of time.

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  18. What bones do you give them? Would they actually consume an entire drum stick for instance? Or do you stick to chicken wings? Rabbit ribs/legs? Entire hearts, or cut up?

    Posted 2 years ago by eleniki #

  19. Chicken breast and small chicken thighs. They also can manage rabbit bones just fine. Chicken backs as well as chicken necks are good for feeding. Sometimes I smash bones like chicken drumsticks so they can eat them. Turkey drumsticks are another thing all together, those things are big. I smash those so that the marrow gets all over the meat and I take away the actual bone after that.

    Chicken hearts are tiny so I don't cut them up. Beef heart is big and is 2-3 lbs so it gets cut up else one cat would hog it. Lamb hearts are about 3/4 of a pound so I still cut those up. What I do when I cut up things - make it about mouse sized. Rabbit hearts are also tiny but the only way I get those is to buy a whole rabbit.

    @leighangela: How much is shipping from Haretoday?

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  20. Leighangela, I read your articles on raw food for pets: http://www.examiner.com/x-10299-Cleveland-Pet-Products-Examiner~y2009m7d18-Pet-Products-101-Is-raw-food-safe-to-feed-my-pets
    Very informative and interesting. FF, you will find a link for Haretoday on there too.
    I have been feeding my cats an organic pouched wet food with no grains and minimum 60% meat content. I have now come to the end of it, as I didn't want to waste what I had bought, and having tried my two kittens on raw for a day am now changing to raw for a month. They will get no more kibble treats, and no more processed wet food pouches.
    Their last commercial meal was this morning at 11.30am. As the wet pouches contain no grain, would you say it is safe for me to give them their first raw meal at 11.30pm this evening? They will be starving, as they are usually fed mid-afternoon as well, being so young. FF, do you agree that this is enough time to clear the non-grain organic commercial food through their systems? They're already hassling me for food! The last time I tried raw, two weeks ago, I didn't leave the right amount of time between feeds, and I worried about salmonella when I realised I should have waited, but they are fine.

    Posted 2 years ago by eleniki #

  21. Karenopa here's one of many answers to your fears: http://www.felinefuture.com/?p=1462
    There are so many websites out there which reassure pet owners on the raw issue, which shouldn't be an issue at all - it should be self-evident that carnivores need raw meat. Mojo, the same website is the one I order the Instincts powdered pre-mix from. Simply follow the directions, adding it to the raw meat. You can then freeze it in batches with the meat, and take it out every night for the next day's meals.

    Posted 2 years ago by eleniki #

  22. Yes I think that it would be long enough.

    Last night I had to feed Chester some commercial wet food because he was refusing to eat chicken for three nights in a row, he looked at me as I had grown another head. None of mine are very happy when I feed the same food for too many days. I now have some picky cats. Okay, so I guess I wouldn't want to eat the same thing for that long of time in a row so I'll just make sure to vary what they get.

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  23. Great article FF50. I used to feed my kit (and dog) fresh meats. I was doing it intuitively, not scientifically like you have. But, everytime I brought them to the vet, the techs and vet would praise how healthy they were. They were always pleased with how clean their ears were. I was only trying to provide the diet closest to their natural one. Thanks for the awesome research.

    Posted 2 years ago by krazikat #

  24. Interestingly, the Instincts website, which I list above (felinefuture.com) suggests mixing raw meat with your cat's commercial wet during the transition period. I've mailed them asking about that, seems extraordinary advise from an enlightened website like this.

    Posted 2 years ago by eleniki #

  25. Eleniki, thanks for the link to the Instincts premixed raw food additive. It is a great idea. But I looked at the ingredients and don't see any phosphorus listed. Today I went to GNC looking for a Calcium tablet with Phosphorus, b/c I was going to make one of the raw food recipes from Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats. Well, they didn't have any with phosphorus. So, I ended up not being able to make this recipe, and the truth is I'm going off half cocked here even starting them on raw meat without having figured out all this stuff. I like the idea of a mix so all I have to do is buy meat and mix it. Pitcairn says cats only need to be given bones to chew on "occasionally." The nutritional value of the bones is contained in the Calcium (and maybe phosphorus) you add to meat. So where's the phosphorus in the Instincts? Maybe one of the other ingredients contains phosphorus?

    Posted 2 years ago by Mojo #

  26. However if you follow the frankenprey style of raw you need to use 80% meat, 10% edible small bones, 5% liver, and 5% kidney. That is what I do and it is balanced. The only real supplements needed are fish oil and some more taurine even though that is only to be safe.

    Posted 2 years ago by furryfriends50 #

  27. Mojo, here is the list of ingredients in the pre-mix without liver (you can get the instincts plus with added freeze-dried liver powder if you have difficulty finding fresh liver). As you can see, phosphorus is included in the analysis.
    It contains everything your cat needs, bar the meat itself.

    Ingredients-100% human grade: Egg yolk, Milk Mineral Complex, Whey Protein Concentrate, Gelatin, Calcium Lactate, Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids from Fish Oil, Taurine, Tocopheryl Acid Succinate (natural source Vitamin E), Kelp, natural source Vitamin B Complex (Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12, Biotin, Folic acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Choline bitartrate, Inositol, PABA). No artificial ingredients added.
    Each 60 g (approx. 1/2 cup) contains:
    Kcal ………………. 268
    Moisture ……….. 6.92%
    Protein ………….. 30.89%
    Fat ……………….. 24.13%
    Omega-3 ……… 780 mg
    Taurine ………… min. 2341 mg
    Calcium ……….. 3585 mg
    Phosphorus ….. 1338 mg
    Magnesium ….. 125.4 mg
    Sodium ………… 170.4 mg
    Potassium ……. 175.2 mg
    Iron ……………… 2.88 mg
    Iodine …………… 516 mcg
    Manganese …….114 mcg
    To complete the recipe you add to each 60g/1/2 cup premix:
    236 ml/1 cup water, 900g/2 lbs. raw meat, and 100g/3.5 oz. raw liver.
    One such batch yields 10 x 130g (a true 1/2 cup) portion finished food, or 13 x 100g portion.

    Posted 2 years ago by eleniki #

  28. Well, last night I fed sumi lamb heart with instincts pre-mix and she loved it, hoovered it up. Miso however, would not touch it, did not recognize it as food. So, she went hungry. sumi finished miso's too, even though she's half miso's size. This morning, miso still wouldn't touch the heart I had put overnight in the fridge, even though I warmed it slightly in a bath of warm water. Sumi was a little less into it too - I think heart is a rich taste to start with, so I blame it on my choice of meat. I ended up feeding miso some of her commercial organic food, as she had gone 24 hours without eating, and she is slightly overweight, not a lot, but has a pouch of fat hanging under her lower belly, and I've read that overweight cats can easily develop fatty liver disease if they are fasted, so I didn't want to take a risk. Plus I felt very sorry for the poor confused girl.
    Just now I fed sumi organic chicken (we have a local butcher and they gave us bulk meat, mixed, for a good price), and again she attacked it with gusto, licking the plate dry. I couldn't give miso raw, as she had commercial this morning, so now we have to wait til tomorrow again to try some chicken on her. The last time I fed her raw chicken, she liked it. But generally she is much more timid about the whole idea, being a slightly nervy and conservative girl.
    Of course I had to feed them in separate rooms too, to make sure neither got any of the other's food, but actually that's normal, as sumi is a thieving savage!

    Posted 2 years ago by eleniki #

  29. FF, I freely confess I am nervous about giving my two bones. I know it's silly, and I'm sure when I'm really adjusted to the whole practice I will try it, but for now, I just can't seem to do it. I used the chicken bones for stock for us last night! And I know the bones are what really give their teeth a work out too....

    Posted 2 years ago by eleniki #

  30. Thanks Eleniki for the nutritional breakdown on Instincts. I couldn't find it on the website, I only found the summary. I wonder what the upshot is on the Instincts PLUS -- with liver? How important, or not, is it to add that? If it's not in the Instincts would I need to buy them fresh chicken liver?

    Posted 2 years ago by Mojo #


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