Daily Kitten Chat Forum » Purrs

I don't know if I can go back to my church

(30 posts)
  1. Last Sunday, the Temp did something so offensive that I don't think I can stand to be in his presence again.

    The gospel reading was the passage where Jesus says that if your hand/foot/eye causes you to sin, cut it off, because it's better to go to heaven maimed than to go to hell with an intact body. My RFP taught us that, in the Jewish culture of the first-century Middle East, such hyperbole was common (the "camel through the eye of a needle" is another example). The point Jesus was making is that, regardless of how important something is to you, if it keeps you apart from God, you should get rid of it. His listeners understood that.

    I arrived somewhat late and, as I didn't feel like crawling over other people to get into a pew, I sat on a chair in the narthex. The ushers were out there, too. The Temp began his sermon by saying that he had thought of bringing an ax with him as an illustration and walking up and down the aisles offering to cut off the hands, feet, tounges, etc., of congregation members. I said, in a normal conversational level (not shouting but not whispering either), "You come near me with an ax and you'll see what my hands can do," "...what my feet can do." When he got to the part at which he suggested lobotomies for people whose brains cause them to sin, I'd had enough. I walked over to one of the ushers, gave him my offering, and asked him to put it in the plate; I told him, in the same conversational volume, that I'd had enough, I dropped my program on the floor, and turned to leave.

    A young woman who was sitting on the back pew heard all of this and came out of the sanctuary; she asked if I'd like to talk for a while. We sat on a pew that's just inside the door to the church. I told her how offensive the Temp's illustration was to someone who had been an abused child and an abused spouse and who had psychiatric illness. We talked until it was time for communion, at which time I told her I'd let her go, and I left the church. I think she must be a counselor. When she asked me who my psychiatrist was, she said she knew him and that several of her clients saw him.

    I haven't said anything to the Temp because I can't stand hearing his voice. I was part of that congregation even though I was sitting outside the sanctuary, and I don't appreciate the person who is supposed to be at least a partial spiritual leader offering to mutilate me. The usher came to me while I was talking to the young counselor and told me that he'd heard the sermon at the early service and that the Temp did get around to saying that Jesus wasn't suggesting literal dismemberment, but that doesn't change what he said at the outset.

    So, littermates, am I overreacting? I was, BTW, fully medicated at the time.

    Posted 2 years ago by Leeny #

  2. Hi Leeny--actually "the 'camel through the eye of a needle'" might refer to an actual location in the walls of a city--a narrow passage before which a camel had to be unloaded etc to pass. But there are other interpretations...and none of that is relevant to the matter at hand.

    I'm with you.

    Offering to bring an axe to church is a really poor rhetorical device, a fundamental mis-understanding of what various traditions call jihad or introspection or ego-death etc.

    Posted 2 years ago by Claudia #

  3. I can see why you reacted in the way you did, Leeny. This might be a teachable moment for the Temp. You would be doing him a kindness by having a private conversation with him explaining how his words affected you. It might make him more sensitive in the future. {{{hugs}}}

    Posted 2 years ago by Kitten Whisperer #

  4. Or, you could wrest that axe from him and pluck the offending head from his body, lest that cause him to sin...

    Posted 2 years ago by Vicki #

  5. KW, I had thought of sending him a three-sentence e-mail:

    Dear Rev. [Temp]:

    It is not a good idea to use dismemberment as an illustration in the presence of people who have been abused.

    It is not a good idea to use lobotomy as an illustration in the presence of people with psychiatric illness.

    Doing so can cause believers to stumble.

    Sincerely,
    [My Full Name]

    Before this, though, I'd already been having problems with some of the denomination's theology. I was waiting until a new permanent pastor was called to see what his/her take on that would be, but now I'm not sure I want to hang around that long. We've been without an actual pastor for 16 months now, and I'm getting really tired of waiting.

    Posted 2 years ago by Leeny #

  6. Leeny, you did not overreact. The temp. did not think out his sermon well at all.

    Posted 2 years ago by CSBM #

  7. I think the best thing to do is speak to the pastor. He may have no idea how his words were taken and how offensive he was. He will never learn unless he is talked to by a member of the congregation. Please speak to him and tell him how you feel. I am pretty sure he will learn and grow into a better pastor. You can be a spiritual leader Leeny--teach him by showing the grace God gave you.

    Posted 2 years ago by SoxsMom #

  8. I'm not very impressed with his sermon, either.

    I'm going to tell you a story that I told my nephew when he was about seven or eight years old. My mother and I were taking Ryan to church with us. Mother lived in a very rural area and we her church was in the third town over. We drove through her town and passed a couple of churches. Each time we passed one, Ryan got excited and said, "There's the church!", and we would say, "No, that's not the one we go to.". Same thing happened as we drove through Pine Grove. We got to Sutter Creek and passed the first church and Ryan said, "I don't understand. Why don't we go to one of those churches we already passed?"

    Rather than try to explain to a child about Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, Romans, LDS, etc., I used this allegory:

    We are hungry and we need to eat to keep our bodies alive. There are lots of restaurants we could go to and each one serves food. But, some serve Mexican food, some serve Italian, some serve hamburgers and fries, some serve French food. It's all food, it all nourishes your body, it's all prepared by people who want to help us take care of our hunger. But, some people like tamales best, some like pasta, some like hot dogs.

    Ryan seemed to understand just fine. (Of course on the way home he did mention that he was glad we went to the doughnut church, not a church that served vegetables afterward.)

    So, Leeny, if the church (restaurant) isn't nourishing your soul (body), find another restaurant. Food is food, but you have the right to find a restaurant that prepares it in a way you enjoy it.

    Posted 2 years ago by CheetahBoysmommy #

  9. Very good analogy CBM.

    Posted 2 years ago by AZDEBRA 5/27 & crew #

  10. This is chilling just to hear about Leeny. I don't care if he eventually "smoothed it over" or clarified his point. There are many captivating ways to preach a sermon. I have some favorite pastors who have never conjured up such creepy images to send their message. You were right to make a point of leaving and "turn the other cheek". I would say something to a senior pastor though.

    Posted 2 years ago by krazikat #

  11. I would have done the same thing. I agree with CBM...some places just arent fit to eat/worship. You have to find what is right for you and if that person wants to bring people to the Lord, threatening to chop people up isn't gonna do it. Hoping you find the best place for YOU!

    Posted 2 years ago by SugarBee #

  12. I'd be upset too, Leeny. I would not put up with that. Brilliant remark, Vicki!!! Good thoughts, CBM!

    Posted 2 years ago by katthays #

  13. Honey, you have enough on your plate without having to personally bring the light of reason to one more idiot. The counselor will carry the news onward about the Temp -- somehow, I feel very sure of that! And I am quite sure others will have indicated how they felt from such a sermon. The Temp's homilies leave a lot to be desired, and he needs to work on his own personal way with words.

    Right now, just sit back and rest. Conserve your energy, and pray. You have other, bigger battles ahead of you.

    God loves you, and so do we. Let your heart be calm.

    Posted 2 years ago by Emma #

  14. I am sorry that the people of your church have made you feel unwelcome in God's house. They need to wake up and realize that IT IS GOD'S PLACE, not theirs, and that they are there to act for Him, not for themselves. I have always felt that I do not need a building to worship my God, and with the blessings that He has bestowed on me, I feel that he approves of where ever I worship Him. Many prayers for you, Leeny.

    Posted 2 years ago by KarenCentennial #

  15. Leeny, as the others have said you had every right to feel as you did by the Temps words. Your faith is between you and God. Where you choose to worship is something you need to feel comfortable with but it's not a rush order. Having a place of worship that you connect with is wonderful, but take your time and God will lead you to that place and in the meantime you have Him,and you have your friends to help you through.

    Posted 2 years ago by 2bpurring #

  16. Leeny, my heart is breaking for you. I know how much you love that church and the people who attend and how much the congregation has done for you and Mr. L. To have the one person who is supposed to bring you all toghether before God, be the one who is dividing you with his words is tragic. I am not sure of your denomination or its organizational structure. I would address your concerns to whatever governing body or office placed that temp in your church. A house divided cannot stand and the people who placed this man there need to know how he is wounding people with his words and actions.

    In the mean time, I encourage you to sample other churches and even denominations. God has not turned his back on you. Seek him out in other locations. I am praying for you and your pain. I am praying for the temp pastor as well that he come to realize the negative impact of his words and that he gain a better understanding of what his role should be.

    Posted 2 years ago by KYKAT 12 23 #

  17. Whatever gives you peace and draws you close to God is a good thing. Please don't let the temp drive you out of a church that has sustained you for so long. A call to the pastor might be in order.

    Just don't get too stressed, honey.

    Posted 2 years ago by Emma #

  18. Today is the 19th anniversary of the day I joined that church.

    I might send the 3-sentence e-mail.

    Posted 2 years ago by Leeny #

  19. BCC the chuirch leadership and if possible your old pastor.

    Posted 2 years ago by KYKAT 12 23 #

  20. The usher to whom I gave my offering is one of the congregation leaders, so he knows. Some bishop placed the Temp with us, and I don't even know who he is. My RFP would not listen to it at all; in my denomination, there's a rule against former pastors being involved with their former congregations, and he respects the rules no matter what his personal feelings may be.

    Posted 2 years ago by Leeny #

  21. That is a shame that your RFP isn't able to have a talk with the temp pastor. Advice coming from a former pastor might be heeded. I hope the congregation leader pursues this on behalf of you and the rest of the congregation. No one should ever be made to feel unwelcome in church.

    Posted 2 years ago by KYKAT 12 23 #

  22. I would speak to the leaders of the church. If you get nowhere I would find a church with a pastor I liked better. I can't believe you were the only one offended by him.

    Posted 2 years ago by Sheba's Mom in Raleigh, NC #

  23. Unwelcome doesn't capture it, KYKAT--I felt assaulted.

    I think I'd better send the 3-sentence e-mail; I want to tell him to his face (or, in this instance, screen) that I have a problem with him before going to anyone other than the people who already know.

    Posted 2 years ago by Leeny #

  24. And he has no idea who those abused people might be.... Sorry Leeny, you didn't need this on top of everything else. I walked away from organized religion long ago. Just not for me. My higher power hears me no matter where I am.

    Posted 2 years ago by 2 Popoki #

  25. Send it! I hope he has the intelligence and compassion to talk with you and apoligise and learn from his mistaken attitude.

    Posted 2 years ago by KYKAT 12 23 #

  26. Just sent it; copied it from my post and inserted the names; put "Sermon of September 27" as the subject.

    Posted 2 years ago by Leeny #

  27. Good for you. At the very least you have spoken out.

    Posted 2 years ago by KYKAT 12 23 #

  28. I am so very proud of you! Sounds like we might be a similiar denomination. In the Episcopal Church when a Priest retires, he is to seperate from that particular church for 12 months. Fr. John was gone for 12 months, but now he attends services. It is a chance to allow the new Priest time to learn the people of the congregation. The problems normally seem to stem from and interim minister. You got one that seems to not understand how powerful his words are to those that are there to grow spiritually.

    I am so very glad you called him on the carpet Leeny. He owes you and many others of the congregation an apology. I pray that a new minister is found for you soon. Remember that you are loved by many and most by God!

    Posted 2 years ago by SoxsMom #

  29. Someone needs to remind him of Matthew 25: 31-46

    Posted 2 years ago by ailuromaniac #

  30. I totally understand your actions. Your temp's lack of tact in his words is very alarming to me, but also not surprising. It seems to me that, in organized religion, the men and women of the cloth become so besotted with themselves and with their own sense of power that they forget that there are scared people out there, troubled people out there, lost people out there....seeking guidance and comfort and lessons in how to simply have faith.

    I call myself a Recovering Catholic for just this reason. I miss the communion I had at one time with my faith, the oneness I felt when I could go into my church and sit in the peace and silence and just talk to God.....but I learned over time that I could do this anywhere, and over the years, I think I have come to understand the Word of God and Jesus's teachings in a much more realistic and literal way: God is everywhere, not just in a house of worship, and Jesus believed that he could teach anywhere...not just in a temple. A rock as a seat on the side of a hill, with grass to cushion his followers as they listened to him.....that was how Jesus taught. The WORLD was his church.

    I walked away from my church after its rules became intolerable to me. No one is going to tell me I MUST believe in a certain way in order to be worthy of God's love, especially not a man in a white hat sitting in a castle far away in Italy. The constant appeals for more donations, more money....intolerable.

    I think we all find a way to be comfortable in our faith in various ways. I think that you are on your own journey of self-discovery. Be true to yourself, and what you believe, and don't let anyone make you feel badly because of it.

    Posted 2 years ago by IronMaiden #


RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.