Daily Kitten Chat Forum » Cats & Kittens

1. 

   This is of great interest I think - it's about mixing raw and dry, and perceived different digestion rates. I found the following information while doing a bit of further research on the raw/commercial debate today:

   1. "Meat is NOT poison. (buzzards evolved to eat poison, i.e. spoiled meat, road kill...) Raw meat does not always carry bad bacteria. Meat that has gone bad, is stored improperly, is sick, etc. etc. can harbor "bad" bacteria, yes. But generally speaking, those suppliers who sell raw meat for consumption do NOT sell bad meat. (And most kitties are smart enough not to eat it.) "

   2. "TRANSIT is not the point of digestion. ASSIMILATION -- that is, absorption of nutrients, followed by disposal of non-needed products -- that is the purpose of digestion. It is true that kitties have a digestive tract shorter than humans. (We might expect that, given our size difference.) And that short distance means a "bad" bacteria will be sent out before it has a chance to find a home inside kitty. However, TIME is not the key. BIO-AVAILABILITY is the key. The reason that kitties digest raw food well is that it's in a form that is more available to them, i.e. it's bio-available. Kibble is just not natural. Compare the french fry to the potato. Which do we digest better?"

   3. "We people are smart enough not to try to deliver a full meal of both kibble & raw at the same time. Transition means trying a little here and there. So putting a 1/2 tsp or so on the plate with the kibble just isn't going to have a chance to do serious damage."

   4."Our bodies, and all of nature, are much, much smarter than we assume. "Bad" bacteria will not be absorbed unless the environment of the kitty's body will support it. In other words, if the kitty is healthy, and they eat bad food, you can expect them: to vomit, have diarrhea, or just poop it out normally."

   5. "Lastly, some people apply principles from macrobiotics and ayurveda and other people-food rules to CATS. I'm not sure that is a fair comparison. We will get gas if we eat fruit after eating meat. But, given the physiological differences between humans and cats, can we say the same rule applies? My gut says "no."

   So, reading this, it seems I was wrong to be concerned about different 'rates' of digestion. I have lots to learn about the subject!

   Posted 5 months ago by eleniki #

2. 

   This is interesting, thanks Eleniki. Your source? When I was experimenting with serving my cats raw food, I was also serving canned and/or dry later the same day. I didn't want to have to worry too much about it--and didn't. FF was suggesting that somehow this could cause e coli contamination, a thesis which makes no sense to me whatsoever.

   Posted 5 months ago by Mojo #

3. 

   No, and I think that approach, while erring on the sensible side of care, is over-cautious. Mojo, I have since done other research on Feline Future, Instincts pre-mix powder as well, and unfortunately it has been at the centre of some contraversy regarding blockages found in cats who consumed it over a long period. The blockages were caused by a whey protein used in place of bone meal, and in at least one case, the poor cat died. The others recovered. Apparently there are two Feline Future companies now, one run by Felice, the other, the problematic one, by Natascha. I believe Felice's Feline Future pre-mix uses bone meal and is ok, but I cannot be 100% about that. It goes without saying that I am discontinuing my Instincts feeding immediately. So, it's back to the drawing board now, and I'll just have to organize myself to make bulk recipes with correctly proportioned ingredients every 2 weeks or so from now on. Currently, it's back to the organic grain-free commercial for my girls.

   Posted 5 months ago by eleniki #

4. 

   Personally I just do choose to be extra cautious.

   I found out the problem from people on Itchmo and while some say that it can and some that it can't I wanted to be extra careful with what I was doing. Here is the link that one of them referenced: http://www.pawsitivepet.ca/Intro%20to%20Raw%20Feeding.pdf

   Some people there will mix wet with raw but not mix kibble with it. Others think that it is dangorous to mix anything else with raw (which is my view as I want to be really careful). Others think that it can cause bacterial growth and others just stomach upset. There is no real scientific study on what could/would happen which is why I choose the most careful side of the debate. Once I made the choice to go all raw I went all raw. I got rid of most of the kibble/canned food except for a small bag and a few cans for an emergency.

   Posted 5 months ago by furryfriends50 #

5. 

   I still wouldn't mix raw with commercial food in one meal, FF, nor even close to it. But it put my mind at rest regarding giving my furkins a raw morning meal and an afternoon or evening commercial meal if I had to. I had been worrying about that, but it seems there is no danger there. Doom nuggets are history in our house, and miso has lost her flab almost completely, after only 2 weeks! Very clear what was causing her paunch and love handles...

   Posted 5 months ago by eleniki #

6. 

   I think as far as kitties stomachs go, you want to be consistant. If you are feeding raw all the time and you start adding commercial food to it, that could cause an upset stomach. I'll guarantee you that adding commercial food (canned, and therefore bacteria-free) to raw food doesn't increase the bacteria present. Adding canned food to raw food and letting the whole mess sit around for hours - that could be a problem. So if you mix, follow the 15 minute rule - let the cats chow down for 15 minutes and then toss the rest. Actually, I wouldn't let plain raw food sit around for hours either, since that is the source for bacterial contaminants.

   Posted 5 months ago by scaredicat #

7. 

   Also RE raw meat and bacteria - here is a good rule of thumb: the more processed it is, the more bacteria is has. When a kitty bites into an intact, freshly dead animal, there is basically no bacteria present on the meat. A roast from the grocery store has bacteria on the surfaces -- but lots of meat in the interior that is pristine and bacteria free. A whole chicken, grown and slaughtered for you, has a bit more bacteria (chickens are dirty, and it's tough to gut them). Chicken from a commercial flock - the shrink wrapped stuff in the grocery - should be treated as extremely contaminated, due to the processing. Ground beef should be treated as extremely contaminated. Extremely contaminated meats should not be left out at room temp. without cooking. All surfaces they touch should be cleaned with hot water and soap or bleach. I'm not kidding -- most kitchen counters in America have far more (and more dangerous) bacteria than bathrooms.

   Posted 5 months ago by scaredicat #

8. 

   Hmmm, well in that case, SC, I am feeding my kits extremely contaminated organic chicken parts, packaged as you describe. I agree with you completely regarding the time left out (in my house, the food doesn't make it past 5 minutes usually, as my girls clearly see themselves in a starring role as malnourished starving orphans..)

   Posted 5 months ago by eleniki #

9. 

   Eleniki - I don't know what constitutes "organic" in chickens -- however, when I buy it in the stores, I do so in the hopes that the farmers will have used more care in raising (and dispatching) their flocks. More care should translate into less bacteria. It's the large commercial flocks, and the associated slaughterhouses that are big problems.

   If the kitties polish the chicken off in 5 minutes, there's not much chance for the bacteria, is there? And most cats are picky enough to avoid food that has gone bad.

   Posted 5 months ago by scaredicat #

10. 

    here's a consumer reports link to that chicken contamination report:

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/food/food-safety/chicken-safety/chicken-safety-1-07/overview/0107_chick_ov.htm

    I'm happy because the chicken I use is the lowest salmonella and the other thing that I don't remember the name :D

    Posted 5 months ago by furryfriends50 #

11. 

    Right, well that made for sobering reading FF. So it seems that I'm around 87% likely to be putting bacteria down on my girls' plates. Freezing it prior to doing that may reduce the bacteria a bit though? If I put it down immediately after fridge thawing, only bringing it to room temp in tepid water right before serving it. Also, I think the whole point of this issue is that cats don't harbour salmonella the way humans do, due to the short intestinal tract and higher acid content of the stomach, which makes it a very unfriendly place for bacteria to be. The following link refers mostly to dogs, but is interesting nevertheless: http://www.mountaindogfood.com/HealthCare/Salmonella.htm
    Google books says that the small intestinal transit time for cats is 135 to 183 mins - now what it doesn't say is whether this is for raw, commercial or kibble, but if we take it that it's referring to tinned food loaded with filler, then we can be happy in the knowledge that raw takes considerably less time to break down, and grain-free wet also.
    It seems safety lies in hygiene and common sense. I think it's good that you take such care with your cats FF, and once I've gathered all the ingredients (a little harder here in Ireland where the raw movement is tiny) I will be happier, as there will be little or no mixing by then, I hope.

    Posted 5 months ago by eleniki #

12. 

    Eleniki, thanks for the heads up on Instincts. I was just about to order some. Now I don't know WHAT to do. Go back to my quest for Calcium and Phosphorus tablets I suppose. I can get Calcium/Magnesium, but that's not what I want. I want Calcium, either with Phosphorus or without, and then Phosphorus on its own. I think I'll start saving my eggshells too, and then grinding them up with a coffee grinder. That is a good source of calcium for cat food.

    Posted 5 months ago by Mojo #

13. 

    "Bone also provides magnesium. Most importantly, though, is the calcium in bone. It's very important that cats maintain a proper balance of calcium:phosphorus. Muscle meat provides lots of phosphorus. Bone provides calcium. Cats must have both.

    If the diet is too heavy in muscle meat (phosphorus), diarrhea may result. If the diet is too heavy in bone (calcium), the cat will become constipated. Keep an eye on your cat's stool and adjust the muscle meat:bone ratio to keep the stool well formed, large, and comfortably squishy (think warm tootsie roll)."

    -Laurief

    You don't need phosphorus supplements as muscle meat has a lot of phosphorus. Personally I find it much easier to just feed bone and not add any supplements besides a bit of fish oil and taurine just to be on the very safe side. If you aren't comfortable with feeding bone you can get mice from Petsmart/Petco (or that is what I have heard, going to check today). Else you can order mice from rodentpro or hare-today.

    Posted 5 months ago by furryfriends50 #

14. 

    FF, I don't know what "muscle meat" is, nor how to buy it. I suppose on a chicken though it would be more the dark meat...like legs? I am vegetarian. I can't go to the butcher and ask for "muscle meat" -- I imagine he'll give me a blank stare, even if my spanish is correct. I also don't know how to "feed bone" in a way that is efficient and doesn't require special trips to the store to buy chicken legs or whatever. Efficiency! Efficiency is what I require! From the Pitcairn recipe, it looks like the Calcium-to-Phosphorus ratio is about 2-to-1.

    Actually the more I look at these Pitcairn recipes the more I think it's just going to be impossible. Where am I going to find kelp powder? Lecithin granules? This would be hard enough in the US, but virtually impossible here in Costa Rica, let alone without a car. Even searching for something like lecithin granules would require going to several stores (by cab), with the likelihood that none would carry it. I've already spent a few hours in a fruitless search for Calcium and Phosphate. Forget it. I'm going to order Instincts, or the other brand that Eliniki mentioned.

    Posted 5 months ago by Mojo #

15. 

    Here's the better of the two Feline Instincts links:
    http://www.felineinstincts.com/
    Please don't order the other! It will very possibly damage your kits' health!

    Posted 5 months ago by eleniki #

16. 

    I checked out the felineinstincts site but then got confused over the liver powder issue again. They suggest chicken liver powder is more palatable for cats than beef liver powder. Does this mean I have to order chicken liver powder separately? I didn't see any on offer there.

    Posted 5 months ago by Mojo #

17. 

    Mine like beef/lamb liver better than chicken.

    Just to clarify: when I say muscle meat it means any boneless meat, heart, or giblets.

    Posted 5 months ago by furryfriends50 #

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